00:24
hello and welcome everyone thank you for
00:26
joining us today for a special live
00:28
stream curated discussion
00:30
my name is sue burgess and i'm the
00:31
shrines director of public programs
00:33
i'll be joined today in conversation
00:35
with dr madonna graham
00:36
and hopefully we'll be also joined by
00:38
shine curator neil sharkey who's having
00:40
a few technical issues as we speak
00:43
the shrine is held in care by the shrine
00:45
trustees on behalf of all victorians
00:47
we embrace the diversity of our state
00:49
and i acknowledge the traditional
00:50
custodians of the land
00:52
and pay my respects to their elders past
00:54
and present
00:55
and the elders from other communities
00:57
who are joining us online today
01:00
i extend a special welcome to all past
01:02
and present members of the australian
01:03
defense forces and thank you for your
01:05
service
01:06
i would also like to acknowledge the
01:07
members of the second third
01:09
australian hospital ship center
01:11
association and their relatives and
01:13
friends
01:13
who hopefully are online joining us
01:15
today today's discussion will have a
01:18
brief introduction about the central
01:19
exhibition
01:20
and before we uh and then i'll formally
01:23
introduce our
01:24
two curators and then we'll move into a
01:26
q a session
01:27
we would love to make this as
01:29
interactive as possible so please
01:31
uh post your questions in the chat
01:33
section of the
01:34
um of the video um
01:38
so let's go into an intro of the
01:41
um exhibition
01:44
the shrine's newest exhibition dean
01:46
bowen's imagining centaur
01:48
explores the sinking of the second third
01:50
australian hospital ship center
01:52
by a japanese submarine in the second
01:54
world war at the core of the exhibition
01:56
is a selection of beautiful charcoal
01:58
drawings by renowned artist dean bowen
02:02
dean was inspired by 2009 news reports
02:04
showing footage of the centaur
02:06
wreck over 2000 metres below sea level
02:09
seeing these images and thinking about
02:11
the tragedy
02:12
dean began to create a series of
02:14
interpretive charcoal drawings
02:16
and in 2018 bowen approached the shrine
02:19
of remembrance with an offer
02:20
to donate some of these drawings and
02:23
other works under the commonwealth's
02:24
government's cultural gift scheme
02:28
the shrine was delighted to accept
02:31
shrine curator neil sharkey was keen to
02:33
bring the central story to our attention
02:35
again
02:35
and many years later the story still has
02:37
power to move people
02:39
the exhibition is further enhanced by an
02:41
animation of the central art
02:43
created by japanese audio visual artist
02:45
ayumi sasaki
02:47
it's supported by soundscape including a
02:49
beautiful poetry recitation
02:51
commissioned by the shrine the animation
02:52
is available to view on our website
02:54
and hopefully you've all had a chance to
02:56
look at it
02:58
neil and dean bowen also collaborated to
03:00
present the gallery space itself
03:02
as a critical component of the
03:04
exhibition the gallery walls are painted
03:06
in the unambiguous hospital ship
03:08
paint scheme that sent to a bore when
03:10
the torpedoes struck
03:11
while immersive light projections of
03:13
accentor's watery grave
03:15
the charcoal drawings are not framed but
03:17
they float off the wall
03:19
in a specially developed system as if
03:20
suspended in space
03:24
to provide some historical context for
03:26
the exhibition it was decided to include
03:28
historical relics and personal stories
03:30
with the people
03:31
who were caught up in the actual events
03:32
of the 14th of may 1943
03:35
we would like to thank our donors the
03:36
australian war memorial
03:38
the central memorial fund for nurses the
03:40
second third
03:41
aih australian hospital center
03:44
association
03:45
the state library of queensland and the
03:47
families of victims of the tragedy
03:49
including the most famous victim of the
03:51
tragedy
03:52
the only surviving nurse sister ellen
03:54
savage
03:56
we enlisted the support of noted medical
03:58
historian and central
04:00
expert donna dr madonna graham madonna
04:03
served as exhibition co-curator and is
04:05
also joining us in today's conversation
04:08
and i'm very happy to say neil has
04:10
joined us which is fantastic
04:12
i'd now like to introduce our speakers
04:14
today
04:15
dr madonna green is an independent
04:17
historian a registered general nurse and
04:19
midwife an honorary fellow in nursing at
04:21
the university of melbourne
04:23
she's an oral history interviewer for
04:25
the national library of australia
04:27
and advisor to the television series who
04:28
do you think you are
04:31
in 2012 with support from the royal
04:33
australian college of nursing
04:35
madonna research central's complement of
04:37
12 australian army service nurses
04:39
only one of whom survived the sinking in
04:42
2015
04:43
as the john oxley fellow at state
04:44
library of queensland
04:46
madonna investigated the centaur
04:47
memorial fund for nurses
04:49
queensland's tribute to nurses who
04:51
served the state during the two world
04:53
wars on the military and home fronts
04:55
a very warm welcome to madonna thank you
04:58
sue
04:59
and good morning everybody neil sharkey
05:02
has been a curator at the shrine of
05:03
remembrance since january 2007
05:05
and in that time has developed 30 shrine
05:07
special exhibitions
05:08
as well as the permanent second world
05:10
war gallery he has prevented
05:12
professional development seminars from
05:14
museums australia
05:15
the national archives of australia and
05:17
military history and heritage victoria
05:20
he was a member of the judging panel for
05:22
the 2017 and 2018
05:25
museums australia victoria awards and a
05:27
very warm welcome to neil
05:31
okay and just remind you again uh
05:33
questions can be
05:35
placed into the comment section
05:38
whilst you're watching the video but
05:40
i'll get the conversation going and i'm
05:42
going to ask madonna a question
05:44
madonna what inspired you to research
05:47
the nurses on the centaur
05:49
and did you ever meet any of their
05:51
survivors or families
05:54
well look good morning everybody who's
05:56
um tuning in to this
05:57
opportune occasion given that we're in
05:59
lockdown in melbourne and our exhibition
06:02
hasn't been able to launch yet so
06:04
um it's a lovely opportunity to talk
06:06
about what we're aiming to do with the
06:08
exhibition when you do come to visit so
06:10
thanks very much sue
06:12
um i started my work on the central
06:15
nurses
06:16
when i was a board member of an
06:19
organisation
06:20
called the nurses memorial center at um
06:22
sinkhilda road
06:23
it was established after world war ii as
06:25
a memorial to
06:27
uh that particular group of service
06:30
nurses because there
06:31
was only one memorial to nurses
06:35
in melbourne that was used on anzac day
06:39
and that was a
06:40
it still exists it's a bust not exactly
06:44
a bust it's a head
06:46
of um edith cavill who was a killed in
06:48
world war one an english nurse working
06:50
in belgium
06:52
and the world war ii nurses felt that
06:53
they didn't have their own memorial so
06:55
they set one up at sinkhilda road
06:57
and they made it an um an educational
07:01
uh tribute to their serving
07:04
to the world war ii serving nurses and i
07:07
was a board member there
07:08
we had a memorial in the 65th
07:11
anniversary of the sinking of the
07:12
centaur
07:13
and i discovered that most of most of
07:15
the people who knew
07:16
about these nurses had died and there
07:19
was very little about them
07:21
whereas there were a lot about the
07:23
president of war nurses
07:25
because they many of them had survived
07:29
so that's how my interest began i also
07:32
discovered that there was a central
07:34
scholarship in queensland and a central
07:37
a central fellowship in queensland and a
07:39
centaur scholarship in victoria
07:41
and i i had to do quite a bit of work
07:43
for myself to understand the difference
07:45
and that's how i came to study the
07:47
particular organisation in queensland
07:49
called this into a memorial fund for
07:51
nurses which was the equivalent of the
07:53
nurses memorial centre in victoria
07:56
wonderful thank you madonna we'll
07:58
introduce
07:59
the second question sue was yes did i
08:02
meet anybody
08:03
um once i joined the memorial services
08:05
which
08:06
were held until very recently at
08:09
heidelberg repat hospital
08:11
where the centaur wing is and a
08:14
beautiful stained glass memorial within
08:16
the chapel
08:17
i met martin pasch there when he was in
08:20
his dotage but
08:21
other than that it's really only it's
08:24
it's relatives uh children of people who
08:26
are on the center
08:27
um direct descendants mostly
08:31
wonderful thank you i'll go to neil now
08:33
and we'll we'll um
08:35
neil you're obviously familiar with this
08:37
story of the centaur
08:39
but when you saw the artwork from dean
08:41
bowen what really inspired you
08:43
about that artwork um
08:47
well because it was inspiring i suppose
08:49
the
08:50
i'd never quite seen anything
08:53
like that as far as um art depicting
08:57
uh an event in wartime um
09:01
i'm very used to when dealing with war
09:04
art which i use a lot in my exhibitions
09:08
as a
09:08
as a way to you know illustrate certain
09:11
points in history
09:12
or certain uh key figures um
09:16
uh that you know they're done in us in a
09:19
particular sort of
09:20
style you know and the artists that
09:22
create them uh
09:23
are very much conscious of the fact that
09:25
they're creating
09:27
um you know historical documents i
09:30
suppose
09:31
uh and even when those paintings are
09:33
abstracted
09:35
you know that there's always a
09:38
a very tangible link to you know
09:41
a historical time or place or event i'd
09:44
never seen any
09:46
uh depicting an historical event that
09:48
was so
09:49
clearly drawn from the imagination
09:52
and you know a very unique um
09:56
uh uh
09:59
imagination and and i thought gee
10:02
nobody's ever
10:03
viewed um this event
10:06
through this lens you know through a
10:08
lens like this before
10:10
and and i thought that um
10:14
you know i was familiar with dean's work
10:17
anyone who googles his work will find
10:19
that there's a a great deal out there
10:21
it's all over the world
10:23
it's all over australia uh in in public
10:27
um uh you know a lot of councils a lot
10:31
of
10:32
um public institutions will have
10:35
examples of his sculptures
10:36
his paintings and so forth um it's very
10:40
quirky vibrant work uh it's playful
10:43
um but this work was different from
10:47
the other work of him that i'd seen in
10:49
the past it was
10:50
it was it was very beautiful of course
10:52
but it was also dark
10:54
and unsettling and i thought
10:57
uh gee we could do a really good
11:00
exhibition
11:01
on this event uh with
11:05
um using this
11:08
uh using this unique vision as the as
11:11
the way to draw people
11:13
to it and so i think that's that's
11:17
that's what really inspired me to
11:20
i mean i'd been wanting to do an
11:22
exhibition on this particular event for
11:24
a long time
11:25
uh and and this i saw is the way that to
11:28
do it but in a very different way
11:31
so madonna thinking about the fact that
11:33
you haven't seen the exhibition yet like
11:35
the majority of our audience
11:37
what do you what are your thoughts on
11:38
the idea of of history and modern
11:41
artistic response
11:42
working together um look to be honest
11:45
sue
11:46
it was really um
11:49
quite a new i agree with neil it's a
11:52
completely different way to
11:56
come into an exhibition um
12:01
the neil anyone who looks at dean
12:03
bowen's work a lot it's a naive form of
12:06
art which is a recognized form of art
12:08
but what dean's done with the charcoal
12:12
display is to really convey
12:15
um there's an evil about
12:19
the event because it was a war crime
12:23
um dean's paintings are really bright
12:27
they're often really um superbly
12:31
depicted with fabulous color and in a
12:34
way they're kind of happy pictures
12:35
but once you take the color out of them
12:38
they're
12:40
sombra and the message is sombra and as
12:43
neil said he's been aiming to do
12:45
something on the central
12:46
for some time and of course working up
12:49
to any of these kinds of
12:51
displays in a big way like this one is
12:54
takes years of work and and one of the
12:56
things about exhibitions is that they're
12:58
anchored to an anniversary like a 65th
13:01
or a 75th
13:02
and i think the beauty of this one is
13:04
that it's not anchored
13:06
to an a particular anniversary it's
13:09
there because it's part of our
13:11
war history part of our social history
13:14
the crime occurred off queensland it had
13:16
i think much more of an impact for
13:18
queensland in some way
13:20
because it brought the the war closer to
13:24
it was only 100 kilometers from the
13:25
coast so pants people realized that that
13:28
closeness just in the same way that the
13:31
submarines
13:32
in the in sydney harbour brought the war
13:34
close to sydney
13:35
the scene the sinking at the center had
13:37
a big impact in queensland
13:39
and uh it's opportune for people to be
13:42
able to participate
13:44
in those events in in commemoration of
13:47
those events
13:48
outside anniversary dates i think
13:51
i think it's a great opportunity and i'm
13:53
so pleased we've been able to
13:55
almost get it together yes it's it's
13:58
it's nearly there and i know neil and i
14:00
really um just counting the days not
14:03
that we know how many days it will be
14:04
but
14:05
counting the days when we can actually
14:06
get people to physically experience what
14:08
is really quite
14:09
um a beautiful exhibition now we all we
14:12
have a question from the audience for
14:14
madonna
14:14
if you'd like to listen to this one
14:17
madonna
14:18
um at the queensland library uh there's
14:21
a beautiful poem about the centaur
14:23
can you tell me about the author and the
14:25
poem
14:27
um this poem is actually if it's the one
14:30
i'm
14:30
thinking about um by paul sherman paul
14:33
sherman died a couple of years ago he's
14:35
a well-known
14:36
shakespearean actor teacher and
14:39
performer in brisbane
14:41
and in 1993 he went to a seminar on
14:45
the sinking of the center it was the
14:46
50th anniversary it was held at the
14:48
state library
14:49
and he wrote a reflective poem it's a
14:52
series of poems put together that's
14:54
actually become an epic
14:55
and he published it in 93 and then
14:58
extended it in 94
14:59
and uh won the warana prize for poetry
15:02
competition actually um it's a
15:05
beautifully
15:06
evocative piece um we
15:09
commissioned the recording a colleague
15:11
of mine whose father had served in
15:14
two world wars elaine akworth is an
15:17
actor in brisbane and elaine
15:19
performed the poem and extracts of the
15:22
poem have been used in the
15:25
animation that you've mentioned at the
15:27
beginning
15:30
it's a very once you see it together
15:34
it's uh it's incredibly powerful to put
15:36
spoken word with music
15:38
and it moving image in the animation but
15:41
the poem itself is beautiful
15:44
it takes about 25 minutes to recite
15:47
and we're really really pleased that
15:49
this is an opportunity
15:50
to showcase
15:54
work that expresses commemoration that's
15:57
not the conventional kind of work so
15:59
we're used to artworks we used to
16:02
maps and drawings and newspaper articles
16:04
but poetry is quite different and this
16:06
one is
16:06
very powerful it is available at the
16:09
state library of queensland and we i
16:11
really hope you
16:13
people i have the opportunity to listen
16:15
to the whole poem
16:17
in due course there will be a recording
16:18
of the full poem by elaine in the state
16:20
library of queensland catalogue
16:23
fantastic so that probably is a nice
16:25
segue in to
16:26
speak to neil then about his decision to
16:29
animate the artworks and to use the
16:31
poetry so neil do you want to
16:33
um tell us a bit more about that thought
16:35
process you went through
16:37
uh yeah um well in
16:40
when i first began chatting with dean
16:43
about
16:44
how we might present his work um i can't
16:47
remember exactly how it came up but
16:50
it um it did come up that a
16:54
um that dean exhibits a lot of his work
16:58
in a gallery in japan
17:00
and there's a chap there who owns the
17:02
gallery called utaka
17:05
and utaka year many years ago
17:07
commissioned
17:08
um a a friend of his
17:12
ayumi sasaki uh
17:16
to animate a series of
17:20
um artworks the works of art that dean
17:23
uh was uh exhibiting in utaka's
17:28
gallery and just when he said that
17:32
i thought now there's an interesting
17:34
idea and i had
17:36
one of the things that um i'd come
17:38
across while i was doing research
17:41
um for this exhibition and which in fact
17:44
reminded me of madonna and her interest
17:46
in the centaurs when i first started um
17:50
you know googling to get inspiration for
17:53
how we might present things
17:54
is it threw up an animation a much more
17:59
sort of historic um
18:02
a much more historic sort of animation
18:05
that had been produced
18:06
uh where madonna had been the um the
18:09
historical
18:10
advisor and and that animation was one
18:14
of these i don't know
18:15
if everyone's familiar with the animated
18:17
whiteboard style
18:18
of animation where you get a blank white
18:21
screen and then
18:23
you know you see somebody's hand drawing
18:25
um
18:26
various elements that are then you know
18:29
go you know that sort of pop from one
18:32
idea to another
18:33
uh it's a very common form of uh of
18:36
animation it was very effective
18:38
and i encourage you all to look that
18:40
that animation up
18:42
but just the idea that an animation
18:45
could be used to
18:46
convey the story um
18:49
of what happened uh very quickly and
18:52
very
18:53
efficiently and effectively and got me
18:55
thinking
18:57
that perhaps we could do something
18:58
similar with dean's drawings
19:00
so you'll see anyone who looks at
19:04
the two side by side will will notice
19:06
just how different they are
19:08
but it that was the inspiration so
19:11
having seen
19:12
that that older animation the the
19:14
whiteboard style one
19:15
that madonna had advised on
19:18
you know then i then went and rang up
19:20
madonna and spoke to her and that's how
19:22
madonna came
19:23
became involved in the um in the project
19:27
i of course already knew madonna though
19:29
years ago she had
19:30
been involved in another exhibition at
19:32
the shrine
19:34
um so that was just a happy synergy i
19:37
mean
19:37
so much of what goes on lots of projects
19:40
are just a wonderful synergy of um
19:43
particularly if you've been in the
19:44
business for
19:45
for a few years you know you get to know
19:47
people and and uh
19:48
and one connection comes together and
19:51
joins another one
19:52
so once i knew that you know i was
19:55
exposed
19:55
to the idea that you know that an
19:58
animation could be very
19:59
effective in getting the story across
20:01
that i knew that
20:03
i had i mean we already had a set of of
20:05
drawings of the event
20:07
uh and i and i knew that there was
20:09
somebody who
20:10
had the skills to animate the animate
20:12
the drawings that we did have
20:14
then it really began to fall um
20:18
in place indeed in speaking with madonna
20:21
then i learned of
20:22
the uh sound engineer guy webster
20:25
um and the and the poem and the
20:28
the actress um that that she mentioned
20:33
um that were able um to
20:36
and then all of a sudden all of the
20:37
elements were in place so we had the
20:39
drawings we had the animator
20:41
we had the the poem we had the
20:45
uh the the actress with the skills to
20:48
bring it to life and all of these
20:50
disparate elements that once upon a time
20:52
really had nothing to do with each other
20:54
all of a sudden
20:56
came together in this beautiful way and
20:57
and um so i'd really like to thank
21:00
uh you know utaka yumi paul guy
21:03
webster who's the sound engineer um
21:07
and um the actress um miss
21:10
aqua elaine yeah elaine elaine
21:13
yeah beautiful and um yeah no no it's
21:16
just uh well
21:17
yeah i think neil it would probably i
21:19
think it'd be
21:20
uh appropriate to say that the whole
21:22
thing exceeded our expectations in terms
21:24
of
21:25
the end product of the animation it's
21:26
just amazing um we have another question
21:29
from the audience and i'd like
21:30
both of you to address it so we'll start
21:32
with madonna um
21:34
this is a question about the poster that
21:36
says it's in the exhibition
21:39
that says avenge the nurses which was a
21:41
contemporary peace
21:42
um this uh person's wondering if you
21:45
could talk about the public reaction to
21:46
the sinking
21:47
so i'll get both of you to address that
21:49
in turn so madonna
21:51
i'll get you to start yes look i i
21:54
became into
21:55
just before i address that question if i
21:57
may slightly deviate
21:59
i just want to give credit to the
22:01
whiteboard animation that neil's talking
22:03
about
22:03
was an idea of a teacher of nurses at um
22:07
noosa her name's margaret mcallister
22:11
and we're always looking for ways to
22:13
convey the history of our profession to
22:15
students
22:15
and that was something she came up with
22:17
with a graphic artist
22:19
and and she asked me to just be sure
22:21
that we were
22:22
displaying the right uniforms etcetera
22:24
etcetera so
22:25
that was how the lead into using
22:28
cartoons
22:29
but this graphic art we have the
22:31
original poster
22:32
or one of the original pair of posters
22:36
um devised in 1943 by the advertising
22:39
directorate of the war cabinet
22:41
and the first one says um work
22:44
say fight and so avenge the nurses
22:48
and the other one which we don't have
22:50
says save for the brave
22:54
these two posters came out of a response
22:58
a government response to the sinking of
23:00
the centaur
23:01
of course we know that 268 people were
23:05
killed
23:07
and why the government decided to focus
23:10
on the nurses was really a kind of
23:12
advertising coup if you like um
23:15
all of the people on board the central
23:17
were non-combatants
23:18
and but in like any good advertising
23:22
campaign you need a hook to
23:25
focus people's attention on the subject
23:28
you're wanting to sell
23:30
and so they decided to focus on
23:32
unapologetically on female
23:34
non-combatants who were killed
23:36
so the two posters were made by a a melb
23:40
sydney advertising bureau the same one
23:43
that does those fantastic iconic posters
23:45
of
23:46
surf lifesavers near the sydney harbour
23:48
bridge
23:49
and i think people will agree that the
23:51
color and the matching
23:53
was incredible they they interviewed um
23:56
the naval intelligence unit interviewed
23:58
ellen savage
23:59
in hospital at green slopes repat
24:03
it wasn't a repat then it was the
24:04
general hospital um
24:06
and they took her because her
24:08
recollection of the three minutes of the
24:10
sinking was so clear
24:12
they took her version and that was put
24:14
into these posters
24:16
fantastic and neil do you want to add um
24:18
your
24:19
in your research yeah yeah
24:22
yeah absolutely like i think um
24:24
everything that madonna
24:26
has uh mentioned is is spot on uh
24:29
i think um one thing i will add um
24:32
is that uh i think the reason why the
24:35
nurses provided this hook
24:37
the reason why it was the nurses that
24:39
that were such a powerful
24:41
symbol of the the outrage of the of the
24:44
the war crime is that uh in both world
24:47
wars australia was actually very
24:49
uh fortunate in a way in that
24:53
uh civilian you know the civilian
24:56
population of australia
24:57
were largely untouched by
25:00
um what happened in the war and
25:03
comparatively very few
25:04
women and australian women and children
25:06
became victims
25:08
of of the war certainly
25:11
the percentage of australian soldiers
25:13
sent overseas
25:14
that were killed or maimed was very high
25:17
but but by the standards of the rest of
25:20
the world by the standards of countries
25:21
like
25:22
you know poland or france or china or
25:25
malaya or places like that the numbers
25:28
of
25:29
women and children that came australian
25:31
women and children that came to harm as
25:33
a direct result of the war was very low
25:35
and so
25:36
um i think
25:39
[Music]
25:40
um when when women
25:43
act when women even women in the
25:45
services like the nurses
25:47
uh on center or the ones that uh on
25:50
banker island and some of these other
25:52
um in rebel that fell into japanese
25:56
captivity or that were um killed as a
25:58
result of
26:00
enemy action uh were really
26:04
just beyond beyond the pale as far as
26:06
the australian
26:08
community was concerned because they
26:09
just didn't have that point of reference
26:11
that
26:12
you know someone in poland say would
26:14
have would have thought
26:15
yeah of course women and children get
26:17
killed that's that's um
26:19
so it was just so shocking for the the
26:22
mindset
26:22
of the time because australia was just
26:24
so um physically isolated from
26:27
um from itself and neil i might add the
26:31
um lorraine blow
26:35
was injured and um
26:38
was killed in the darwin bombing but
26:40
until
26:41
then there were no nurses killed in 1943
26:45
the loss of the centaur nurses was the
26:47
greatest
26:48
of any group of women because
26:51
no because yeah the nurses who were pows
26:55
were not discovered until
26:57
october really august 45 later than
26:59
august 45
27:01
and so and the others who were killed in
27:03
car accidents we we i
27:05
don't really um commemorate them even
27:08
though they were killed on active
27:09
servers
27:10
so um in fact the once
27:13
after the war the emphasis was on
27:17
the plight of the pows because that was
27:19
profound and it was a greater number
27:21
and many of them came from the vine of
27:24
brook and were killed in their
27:25
the original sinking of diviner brook so
27:28
and then of course there were the
27:29
rebelled nurses who were put
27:31
into yokohama as pows and develop tb
27:34
and all kinds of things that yeah i
27:36
think yeah that's an excellent point
27:38
yeah they just yeah
27:39
but the fact that there were it was the
27:41
first loss
27:42
collectively of nurses to a such an
27:44
extent
27:45
in australian waters that were so found
27:48
i think
27:49
so we had a nurse every family
27:52
had a nurse and those posters went to
27:54
every workplace
27:55
union shop business all around australia
27:59
and that is why when sometimes i'm
28:01
critiqued
28:02
when i do my presentations about the
28:04
emphasis on the nurses
28:06
and uh why we talk about them and not
28:08
the 251 other people who were killed
28:11
but you know that the second 12 field
28:13
ambulance um
28:15
lost 193 members um
28:18
i think that's correct neil will correct
28:20
me if i'm wrong um
28:22
but you know that that that organization
28:24
that part of the medical corps doesn't
28:26
exist anymore
28:28
whereas the nursing profession supported
28:30
by all of the fundraising
28:32
efforts around australia continued and
28:34
and we see it as our responsibility to
28:37
carry the flame for everybody
28:39
who was lost during these kinds of
28:41
events so continuing
28:43
on with uh the story of the nurses is a
28:46
question about
28:47
sister savage what do we know
28:51
about how she coped emotionally after
28:53
this event
28:54
and then for neil to talk about um
28:58
how she is featured in the exhibition so
29:00
i'll start with madonna
29:01
to talk about um sister savage post the
29:04
event
29:05
um most many people tuning in to this
29:08
discussion will know that ellen was the
29:10
only one of the 12 nurses to survive
29:13
and she had served on the iranian which
29:16
was
29:17
carried seven of her colleagues she was
29:20
part of a team
29:21
so this poor individual woman who was
29:24
the only woman to survive
29:26
um in my view carried that
29:29
kind of survivor weight all of her life
29:32
she was expected at all of the anzac
29:34
events people i know from the central
29:36
memorial fund
29:37
they invited her every year they
29:41
she was the first guest at the center
29:43
house when it
29:44
opened as the memorial tribute to world
29:46
war one and world war ii nurses
29:48
and um i i think
29:51
she she was known to have a very vibrant
29:54
personality but she was also a very
29:56
private individual
29:58
uh her colleagues at newcastle hospital
30:00
tell me that anyway
30:01
she loved to party but she was a private
30:04
person at the same time
30:06
and yeah i think there was a big
30:08
responsibility for her to be
30:09
representative of that kind of grief i
30:12
can't imagine it
30:13
how what a heavy burden that must have
30:15
been but when she
30:17
recovered from her broken palate and her
30:20
broken ribs and
30:21
fractured thumb and burnt burns she
30:24
received was awarded the first um
30:28
central scholarship in victoria she went
30:30
to england to study nursing
30:31
administration which took her away
30:33
from the immediacy of the event
30:37
and she studied because she got a
30:39
certificate in administration and came
30:40
back to australia and worked in
30:42
newcastle
30:44
thanks madonna so neil tell us about how
30:47
sister savage appears in the exhibition
30:49
yeah well we've got um i was able to
30:52
make contact with
30:53
her uh grand nephew uh gavin keating
30:57
and so he has very kindly
31:00
um allowed us to um
31:04
loan her george medal which is
31:07
uh the the award that she was
31:10
given uh for her her courage
31:13
uh during the events um of
31:16
the the sinking and we've also got the
31:19
shoulder boards
31:20
like a rank shoulder board so um the the
31:24
pips that would
31:25
you know indicate her rank that would
31:27
have been worn on
31:28
the epaulettes of her tunic and uh
31:32
and and some of the and the rest of the
31:34
metal groups so
31:35
yeah no it's uh we're very i mean it's
31:37
it's tremendous to have those things on
31:39
uh on display and
31:43
look and and and getting back to
31:46
i guess uh the focus on the nurses
31:50
uh i'd just like to assure everyone
31:52
that's that's watching
31:53
here today that it's by no means the the
31:56
exhibition is by no means
31:59
a nurse-only show we've got material
32:02
uh belonging to private ward mcgrath who
32:05
was member of the second 12th
32:08
field ambulance which was the largest um
32:10
single
32:11
um uh which was which was
32:15
the most represented um unit of uh
32:18
men aboard central when she was sunk
32:21
they were actually
32:22
um passengers being transported to new
32:25
guinea
32:25
uh they were just hitching a ride with
32:27
centaur actually in the empty
32:29
in the empty bunks that would have
32:30
transported uh wounded people from new
32:33
guinea back to australia
32:35
um we've got uh um
32:38
the tunic of uh captain uh bernard
32:42
hindmarsh
32:43
uh courtesy of his daughter jan thomas
32:46
uh um and that's the tunic he wore on
32:48
the previous hospital ship that he
32:50
worked on which was a ronye which
32:52
madonna mentioned before that
32:54
uh um that ellen uh savage was also
32:57
a member of uh and uh we've even got
33:00
some um
33:01
the light a vest uh lights
33:05
um you know the survivors that were in
33:07
the water had these little lights
33:09
attached to their
33:10
life um preservers and and
33:13
a couple of those were uh salvaged by
33:16
gunner's mate talmadge johnson who was
33:18
uh one of the crew of the uss mugford
33:21
the american destroyer that rescued and
33:25
the survivors so you know we've done our
33:28
very best
33:29
um to represent they give a good cross
33:33
cross section of of all of the people
33:35
that are on board
33:37
and centaur and certainly the drawings
33:39
uh also reflect that and dean's
33:41
charcoal drawings also reflect uh some
33:44
of the other
33:45
um survivors and victims of the sinking
33:48
too
33:48
so yeah i wonder if we could just say
33:51
something about there's two
33:53
items that i think are really well one
33:56
significant for new south wales and then
33:58
the other is of the centaur association
34:00
when the centaur was found
34:02
in 2009 the the uh
34:05
robot placed a plaque a memorial plaque
34:10
and data of people who all of the
34:13
service personnel who were killed and
34:16
and uh the centaur association has
34:18
loaned us the replica of that plant for
34:21
the exhibition
34:22
and the other thing that we have secured
34:24
the loan of
34:26
from the central memorial fund is a
34:27
beautiful
34:29
marquette a marquette is a model a
34:32
mock-up
34:33
of uh for those of you who've been to
34:35
the concord
34:36
hospital which was the repat hospital in
34:38
sydney or one of them in new south wales
34:41
there was an there's an enormous
34:43
memorial window
34:46
made of stained glass and and we've
34:48
secured the line of the marquette
34:51
and it's a stunning stunning piece of
34:53
art even though it's just the mock-up
34:56
and um i can't wait to see it because
34:58
i've only seen it in queensland and i
35:00
understand neil you've had a special
35:03
light box made to
35:05
show it off yeah well it's in it's
35:09
in the perfect world it would have
35:10
already been made and installed
35:13
but uh with the the the terrible
35:16
restrictions that we i shouldn't say
35:17
terrible but the restriction
35:19
in here um there's
35:23
that uh the work on that light box uh
35:25
keeps uh
35:26
being disrupted but yeah certainly when
35:28
the exhibition is open
35:30
to the public the stained glass window
35:32
will sit
35:33
atop of a light box wall display
35:36
so that the window will be backlit as if
35:38
it's a window
35:40
in a wall and i think the effect will be
35:43
uh truly amazing
35:44
and and the the great thing about that
35:46
window and getting back to
35:48
the the issue of representation of all
35:50
of
35:52
the the victims on centaur um the the
35:55
window is symbolically loaded
35:56
it contains the national flowers of all
35:59
the states of australia
36:00
it has the the insignia of the
36:04
aif and of the merchant marine because
36:06
of course the sailors that's
36:08
um that uh the
36:12
that um sailed sentinel were merchant
36:15
seamen
36:16
um as well as the the unit markings
36:19
of the um the second twelfth field
36:23
ambulance
36:24
uh the the red engine for the army us
36:27
for the merchant navy
36:28
and the uh yeah so look
36:31
all of these all of these um symbols
36:35
you know built into the design of the
36:37
window it really it really is a stunning
36:39
stunning
36:40
piece it's by martin van martin
36:43
vandertorne yes and uh it's about
36:46
24 by 42 i think the original is really
36:49
quite tall
36:50
it's about um a couple of meters
36:54
so um this but but we're it's a great
36:57
we've been lucky to secure the line of
36:59
this because it's such a special item
37:01
and it's uh
37:02
rarely seen in public like the medals of
37:05
ellen savage and actually ellen's
37:07
relatives
37:08
some of whom are in northern new south
37:09
wales some of whom are in canberra
37:11
they're all excited to be able to see
37:13
these things because even
37:14
within families there's not often an
37:16
opportunity to see these special
37:18
remembrances yeah well that's right i
37:20
mean um ellen's george metal
37:23
uh usually lives in a in you know in one
37:26
of those
37:26
um framed you know carefully placed
37:29
strawberries
37:31
in a wall in a wall in the keating house
37:33
so yeah
37:34
so wonderful that they're that they've
37:36
been willing to to share such a precious
37:38
thing with
37:39
the material from the central memorial
37:41
fund in queensland because of course the
37:43
the the the commemorations that came
37:46
out of these um event of these war um
37:49
incidents um including the pow nurses
37:54
there were a couple of campaigns in in
37:56
western australia south australia
37:59
um victoria and queensland less less so
38:02
in new south wales but
38:03
to to establish centers where the
38:06
profession could be memorialized
38:08
by supporting education really advancing
38:11
education
38:12
and the central memorial fund for
38:13
queensland has a great collection which
38:15
is now in the state library of
38:16
queensland
38:17
and we've secured a couple of items for
38:20
the course of the exhibition a couple of
38:23
lovely posters and some
38:25
memorabilia and ephemera that talk about
38:28
how
38:29
communities did their own fundraising to
38:31
support a local nurse
38:32
in a queen of the nurses competition
38:34
when you used to have those
38:36
as you made fundraising yeah
38:41
thank you neil and madonna that's a
38:42
fantastic you you actually covered off a
38:44
couple of questions that had already
38:45
come through from the audience it's
38:47
great
38:47
there is another question though in
38:49
relation to a specific nurse so i might
38:50
direct that to madonna
38:52
um information about nurse o'donnell who
38:55
went down on the centaur
38:56
i'm not not expecting that you might
38:58
know but you probably do know about
39:00
her um and this this person would like
39:02
to know where they could find out more
39:04
information about nurse o'donnell
39:06
uh that they could contact me i did a
39:09
with the help of a grant from the
39:11
college of nursing in 2012 i did
39:13
biographies of the nurses i haven't
39:15
published them yet um ali ali was
39:19
a fairly recent addition to the
39:22
australian army nursing service
39:24
she was a very experienced theatre nurse
39:27
when when you think about what are these
39:29
people doing when they go to new guinea
39:31
and the the um the trip's not going to
39:33
be very long
39:35
you want to get up there in a couple of
39:36
days retrieve
39:38
injured soldiers and bring them back but
39:40
that means during the night
39:43
um they have x-rays they have operations
39:46
they have um uh there was a pharmacist
39:50
on board dispensing medication for them
39:52
so
39:53
the skill of the nurses on board was
39:55
really in
39:56
dealing with complexities particularly
39:58
operating theater cases
40:00
several of the nurses were theater
40:01
nurses ali came from myrtleford in
40:03
northeastern victoria
40:06
one of the big families she had brothers
40:08
in the services as well and she was a
40:10
private theatre nurse to a fellow to um
40:14
mr alan newton who'd done a lot of
40:16
thyroid work and she
40:18
um he used to drive off to just to give
40:21
you an idea of what private nurses used
40:23
to do
40:24
she did her cases during the day but
40:25
then the evening had to
40:27
um entertain mr newton's wife
40:30
when they were down staying at durang in
40:32
camperdown
40:33
ali had family down at tehran so you
40:36
know these the the effect of these
40:38
crimes of these incidents in world war
40:40
ii they were
40:41
so widespread felt in such
40:45
big um geographic ways
40:48
ann jule who was the matron she came
40:51
from perth her father was a
40:53
competitive cyclist so he was so well
40:56
known in perth and she had a big
40:57
building named after her
40:59
she was also the first aid nurse at the
41:02
sunshine harvester factory in melbourne
41:04
and you know there were hundreds of men
41:06
who knew her from there she was the
41:08
first industrial nurse to be employed
41:10
there
41:10
so um everybody knew these people
41:14
yeah their grief was the grief was
41:17
widespread
41:19
yeah sorry if i could just make one
41:20
point i mean that's one thing that i
41:22
think is
41:23
is um uh that i'd like to
41:26
thank dean bowen for is just the
41:28
generosity of spirit that he had to
41:30
actually allow us to
41:32
um
41:35
you know to tease out all of these
41:37
different uh
41:39
stories um i certainly i mean
41:42
just recently you know in discussions
41:43
with one of the journalists that's
41:44
written
41:45
you know an article about um who wrote
41:48
an article about the exhibition
41:50
she was and one of the criticisms that
41:52
she she made a criticism to me that she
41:54
sort of thought i love all the artwork
41:56
i don't think that the exhibition needs
41:59
you know
41:59
the display case items and so on and so
42:02
forth and
42:03
and um and i sort of said to her like
42:07
had you actually you yourself personally
42:09
ever heard of
42:11
of of this event she had it and i said
42:13
well
42:14
that's that's kind of why we we did it
42:16
and
42:17
the in in discussions with dean i mean
42:21
you know it's very clear from when you
42:23
see the drawings that they are works of
42:24
his imagination but they are
42:26
but they are grounded in an event and
42:30
in uh terrible things that happen
42:33
to real people and
42:36
you know the nature of his art is
42:39
is to um
42:43
you know bring out his thoughts and
42:45
feelings on learning about
42:47
you know these events and so
42:51
we he he and i both agreed and and
42:54
and later when madonna you know came on
42:56
board that
42:58
the exhibition would would combine
43:02
his imagination and his imaginings with
43:05
the real events um so that the uh
43:08
this beautiful artwork is is is grounded
43:11
in
43:12
uh in a reality and and and i think
43:16
and so for my mind certainly and i know
43:18
that dean agrees with me
43:19
and madonna also that uh we're very
43:22
comfortable with the way that the
43:24
exhibition has been presented
43:26
with these imaginative elements so
43:29
not only um the drawings and the
43:32
animations
43:33
but also the sound and light show the
43:35
soundscape all
43:36
you know all of these very artistic um
43:40
responses uh to
43:43
historical events that are there in the
43:46
display cases
43:47
for people to see you know sort of the
43:49
the the the ephemera
43:52
the relics of this terrible event
43:55
and and and these wonderful people whose
43:58
lives were
43:58
cut short or if they did survive were
44:01
affected
44:01
ever after by what had happened um uh we
44:05
have another question
44:06
thank you so much for submitting your
44:08
questions it's been fantastic
44:09
um this question is in relation to uss
44:12
mugford
44:12
who found the survivors neil question
44:15
for you really to start
44:17
um can you tell us how that's
44:20
represented in the exhibition
44:22
and the second part is is the us navy
44:25
aware of how prominent they were in this
44:27
story
44:30
um well the the main
44:33
we certainly there's a the uh one of the
44:36
display cases
44:37
features the the items that were um
44:40
salvaged from by uh gunners mate uh
44:43
talmage
44:44
um uh that you know i spoke of before
44:47
there's also a photograph of mugford a
44:50
small photograph of
44:51
mug mugford in the case next to him just
44:54
so that people can get a sense of
44:55
of of what um
44:59
i guess just to help people imagine what
45:01
it must have looked like when this um
45:04
this um vessel was uh
45:07
in a patch of queensland seas surrounded
45:10
by
45:10
you know bodies floating or or people
45:14
um sitting on bits of driftwood which is
45:16
the terrible sight that
45:18
um these guys um saw when they
45:22
happened upon the survivors um look they
45:25
were very
45:26
um those american sailors uh really were
45:29
tremendous
45:30
by all accounts um
45:33
one of the uh terrifying aspects of the
45:36
um
45:36
survivors experience is they were
45:38
constantly being
45:40
um circled by sharks one of the
45:43
survivors one of the centaur survivors
45:45
describes that
45:46
actually as the as the the survivors
45:49
were being dragged onto the ship
45:50
that there were sailors american sailors
45:52
on board mugford
45:54
shooting guns into the water to
45:57
to keep the sharks away um and i don't
46:00
know if that
46:01
that was something they needed to do or
46:02
just something that uh you know
46:05
uh actually this is probably yeah i can
46:07
respond so
46:09
i probably haven't mentioned this to you
46:11
but um
46:12
because there's only so many things you
46:14
can put in an exhibition you can't
46:16
fill up things with stuff because i
46:18
think that it's important
46:20
but actually there's a beautiful letter
46:22
from one of the mugford sailors
46:24
in the central memorial fund
46:27
um recounting i think it's about
46:31
might even be 1978 or something like
46:34
that
46:34
i can't remember but he recounts um his
46:38
feelings about
46:39
like look just like any big event in any
46:41
person's life they carry it with them
46:43
and it never leads them even if they
46:45
don't speak about it
46:47
but he wrote this letter asking about
46:50
if he could meet ellen savage again
46:53
right
46:54
yeah and um because
46:57
she was a woman who stood out amongst
46:59
all of these other
47:00
injured men and even when she got on
47:03
board ship with her injuries
47:05
and when she got back to the pinkenbar
47:07
wharf in
47:08
the brisbane river where they um
47:11
disembarked
47:12
she was still being a nurse healthy
47:14
trying to help
47:15
people be you know even though all of
47:17
these mugford sailors had taken on that
47:19
role
47:20
um and it's a very moving letter
47:23
actually
47:24
but i probably haven't mentioned it to
47:26
you before because there's only some
47:28
remember
47:28
that it probably would have made in the
47:29
exhibition if you had your name but um
47:32
no that's that's tremendous look i mean
47:34
yeah i mean ellen savage
47:36
is you know her gender aside with
47:39
really a really standout character i
47:42
mean you know all of the accounts of
47:44
that
47:45
of that event sort of really mark her
47:47
out as being the hero of the hour
47:48
for for a number of reasons just for the
47:51
support
47:52
that she was able to give as a you know
47:53
as a trained medical professional
47:55
you know she sang uh you know she led
47:58
the men in song to keep their spirits up
48:01
um you know time and time again you know
48:04
the survivors
48:05
sort of mentioned what a a tremendous
48:07
job she did and as for the survivors of
48:09
getting back to the
48:10
the talmadge men i mean they
48:13
when the survivors were on board you
48:15
know the sailors donated clothes they
48:17
booked a collection around to make money
48:19
i mean i think
48:21
um you know we so often hear stories
48:23
about you know over sex
48:24
overpaid over here yeah um of you know
48:27
the
48:28
you know that's kind of the the story of
48:29
the american servicemen
48:31
in australia that's come down to us but
48:33
it was so much more to that i mean they
48:35
really were steadfast
48:36
allies in so many ways and you know very
48:39
generous spirited people i mean i think
48:41
americans generally are
48:43
like that and um and uh
48:46
yeah as for the second part of the
48:48
question the original question was asked
48:50
as to whether
48:51
how well known this story is in america
48:53
i'm sorry i don't
48:54
know but uh i suspect probably not very
48:57
well
48:58
um at all sadly um but
49:01
it would be uh you know i'd certainly
49:03
love for
49:04
american service people uh sorry
49:07
americans visiting the shrine to travel
49:09
through the
49:10
exhibition and for it just to be one
49:12
more thing they find out about and are
49:14
proud of
49:14
you know that their country has helped
49:17
you know an ally
49:18
and and in that event they certainly did
49:20
so because there were three
49:22
three ships and as many airplanes flew
49:25
and sailed past or flew overhead um
49:28
there's
49:29
the um uh the survivors in the water
49:31
without spotting them
49:33
um so it was an it was an australian
49:35
spot a plane that
49:37
that eventually did see them and
49:39
directed the um
49:41
the uh the mugford to the survivors and
49:44
and a destroyer is very um
49:47
for anyone who doesn't know about um
49:50
sailing vessels
49:51
uh destroys a very fast type of warship
49:53
so they're able to get there
49:54
very quickly okay so we're nearly
49:58
we're getting towards the end of our
49:59
time we've had some wonderful questions
50:01
from the audience
50:02
i've got one more question that i'll
50:03
address to both of you in turn and we'll
50:05
start with madonna
50:07
what are your thoughts on the
50:08
reconciliation of past events
50:10
in an exhibition like this uh
50:14
i i think one of the other things that
50:17
if i when i do my presentations about
50:19
the center or some people
50:20
um like you concentrate too much on the
50:23
nurses and that's because i'm a nurse
50:26
some people say you glorifying war
50:29
and as the daughter of a returned
50:31
serviceman who was in new guinea
50:33
in world war ii um glorifying war is
50:38
never further from my mind but i think
50:42
it is important to remember the
50:43
sacrifices that people have made
50:46
so that we were able to live freely
50:49
and um whatever their motivations were
50:52
um people's responses in world war ii
50:56
were um have have contributed to an end
51:00
to the war
51:01
one way or another and uh but but you
51:03
know nobody expects to go
51:05
nobody expects to die when they go to
51:07
work
51:08
unless they're a soldier maybe they
51:10
might think about it so for the rest of
51:12
them i think it's incredibly important
51:13
to recognise the sacrifice that they've
51:16
made
51:16
and i must admit having
51:20
i had misgivings about having an
51:22
animation done in japan
51:24
um even though i've studied japanese
51:26
myself and i work with japanese
51:28
colleagues one of my colleagues works on
51:30
the
51:30
nurses who were at hiroshima so
51:33
historians are
51:35
among us are interested in understanding
51:37
how we can
51:39
use history to as a pathway for
51:41
reconciliation
51:42
but um the person who worked ayumi who
51:45
worked on this
51:46
animation um i don't think she'll mind
51:49
if she tells
51:50
if i explain this story her mother was
51:52
unwell at the time she was working
51:54
um and her mother actually died while
51:57
she was doing the work
51:59
and she felt quite inspired
52:02
by the story of the centre for of nurses
52:05
and doctors going about their work
52:07
um because around her mother's bedside
52:11
were doctors and nurses looking after
52:13
her mother and so for her
52:15
it was a an inspirational story not
52:18
something to be
52:19
afraid of or worried about and and i
52:22
felt incredibly comforted by that
52:24
and we've actually struck up a great
52:25
friendship since so i think
52:28
all these all these um
52:31
not all exhibitions but particularly
52:33
ones like this where we offer a
52:34
different way
52:35
in to think about what happens
52:38
in war they offer an opportunity to have
52:42
a conversation
52:43
if nothing else and if that leads to
52:45
some sort of reconciliation
52:47
that's a marvelous opportunity
52:50
thanks madonna neil what's your
52:52
reflection on that question
52:54
yeah well look i mean and as i explained
52:56
before
52:57
the the inception of the involvement of
53:02
a yumi in the animation of the
53:04
exhibition
53:06
uh was a happy
53:09
coincidence in a way it just so happened
53:11
that um
53:12
in the world the person who had animated
53:15
um
53:16
dean's work in the past happened to be
53:18
japanese
53:19
um but moving forward
53:23
once that sensibility and i think anyone
53:25
who's viewed the
53:26
um the animation will will probably
53:29
agree that
53:30
there's a sensibility to the way that it
53:32
is animated that
53:33
is uh uniquely
53:36
uh a japanese approach
53:40
um in there that's really
53:44
yeah hard to pinpoint it is
53:47
profoundly beautiful yeah it's very it's
53:49
it's it's
53:50
it's it's very i mean if you can sort of
53:51
imagine a japanese garden or
53:54
you know the cherry blossom cherry
53:56
blossom festival or something like that
53:58
it it some of that magic is sort of
54:00
yeah imparted into into
54:03
the the dean's animation dean's work
54:06
which is
54:07
itself very beautiful um
54:10
as far as the the reconciliation look um
54:14
you know you'll often heard hear it
54:15
bandied about by a lot of people
54:17
oh that's 75 years ago it's time you
54:20
know forgive and forget sort of thing
54:22
well
54:23
it's very easy to forgive and forget if
54:25
an event
54:26
hasn't affected you or your family
54:28
directly and it's very easy to
54:31
remain hate-filled and hold a grudge
54:35
if your family or yourself have been
54:38
affected by
54:39
an event um the hardest thing in the
54:41
world
54:42
is to forgive and forget when you and
54:44
your family have been affected by
54:47
a terrible event um
54:50
so but one thing that i
54:53
you know having worked uh at the shrine
54:55
for a very long time
54:57
having met very many war veterans um
55:00
from the second world war certainly and
55:02
and other con
55:03
conflicts um i've met
55:08
um men and women who have fallen to both
55:10
camps you know
55:12
that were able to um in some way come to
55:17
[Music]
55:18
if if not forget then to forgive uh
55:22
and and move forward and and others who
55:24
just and
55:25
you know weren't able to and i'm talking
55:27
former prisoners of war
55:29
um you know people who witnessed
55:31
massacres and
55:32
and so forth um but
55:36
you know i've also met um australian you
55:39
know former australian soldiers
55:40
who they themselves had witnessed
55:43
um you know uh what we would describe as
55:47
as war crimes against um
55:51
you know the the enemies that we were
55:53
fighting against japanese germans
55:54
italians and so on and so forth um and
55:58
and certainly while you know you can't
56:00
point to an australian version of the
56:02
taibama railway or anything like that
56:04
um thank goodness um i i think that
56:07
um you know we we could look at the fire
56:10
bombing of
56:11
tokyo we could talk about hiroshima we
56:13
could talk about nagasaki
56:15
you know war in a sense is the crime
56:19
and that's why avoiding them is such an
56:20
important thing to do
56:22
um but so as far as reconciliation i
56:26
think anything that
56:27
allows us to as madonna says talk about
56:30
a terrible event
56:31
um bring together the two sides in that
56:35
discussion
56:35
allow them to to find out about
56:38
something that they didn't know about
56:39
you may have never heard of centaur
56:41
before um you know she didn't know that
56:44
you know some of her countrymen had you
56:46
know she's a young woman she's you know
56:48
in her
56:48
in her 30s you know she did she didn't
56:50
know that
56:51
some of her countrymen were responsible
56:53
for this terrible terrible crime and was
56:55
horrified
56:56
of course so um and and her way of
57:01
you know processing that is to is to
57:03
help create something that's going to
57:04
spread an understanding of a terrible
57:06
event so that doesn't happen again
57:08
i mean wonderful good things and the
57:11
fact that the
57:12
the work contains elements that are
57:15
intrinsically
57:16
australian you know you know dean's work
57:18
which is
57:19
a very i think australian sensibility
57:23
uh with with a japanese one you know i
57:25
just think
57:26
you know people will agree or disagree
57:28
with me but um but
57:29
but i think it's a wonderful thing and
57:31
and and i
57:33
hope that only good can come of it i
57:36
think
57:37
well thank you both for the those
57:39
reflections and i'll just uh
57:41
make acknowledgement of richard jones
57:43
from the centaur association
57:45
um he sent a note through to say thank
57:46
you so much for the conversation
57:48
and to let us know that his uncle and
57:51
godfather were aboard on board the
57:52
central
57:53
and that many of the members of the
57:55
association still feel that pain today
57:57
so
57:58
as we've discussed today the the the
58:01
pain lingers on not just
58:02
uh with the immediate survivors and
58:06
families but for generations so that's a
58:08
whole other conversation that we could
58:10
have
58:10
um so we're going to wrap it up here and
58:13
i want to thank madonna and neil very
58:14
much for their insights today it's been
58:16
really wonderful
58:18
i'd like to thank the audience for
58:19
joining in our conversation today it's
58:21
been fantastic
58:22
the questions were really terrific i'd
58:24
like to acknowledge the victorian
58:26
government for the support that they
58:27
gave us in developing the exhibition
58:30
the video of the talk will be available
58:32
on the shrine's facebook and youtube
58:33
channels shortly
58:35
if you'd like to keep in touch with the
58:38
shrine you can do that by liking us on
58:39
facebook
58:40
or subscribing to our e-newsletter on
58:43
the shrine
58:44
website shrine.org dot a u
58:48
and we'd really like to see you all uh
58:50
come and visit the exhibition when it is
58:52
safe to do so so
58:54
please keep an eye out on our website
58:55
and facebook and
58:57
i know neil will be very keen to talk to
59:00
people as they come in
59:01
to the exhibition so watch out for
59:03
things coming up over the summer
59:05
thank you so much for joining us and
59:07
have a good day and stay safe everyone
59:09
bye for now tremendous thank you thank
59:16
you
59:38
you
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